More L92 results - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !

[wkmcd]

Patrick G cammed 402 w/ L92 heads.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=735151

[Ed Curtis]

Interesting....

Jeff Creech told me a brand new C6 he just completed did 450-410 on his dyno.

Stock 6.0L Shortblock - Automatic transmision
L92/L76 top end with Patriot duals.
Kooks Headers with stock cats and exhaust
One of my mid-range L92 camshafts

Nothing special at all. The only customer complaint is the the idle is too stock sounding!

Ed

[wkmcd]

The amusing thing is the creator of the cam called my first Breat Bauer cam a "failed experiment" and it made a lot more RWHP/RWT than his cam. :gloves: and Bret spec'd that cam September when we didn't know as much as we do now about the L92 seutps.

[Ed Curtis]

Check this out....

http://guerragroup.com/Cam_Build_Sheet.doc

Then this

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/Build%20Sheet.doc

Not only do low-life Texas LS1 shops steal my cam designs, the Texas jellybean marketing mogul steals my cam form...

Time to change the original Cam Form...

Ed

[wkmcd]

I was talking with Phil Thomas the other day and mentioned that I must be getting smarter or the LS1**** folks are just getting dumber. I don't feel any smarter though.

[SStrokerAce]

Yeah and you didn't even have all the timing in it due to me thinking we could run more compression. Oh well that's what I get for thinking. That cam is so far freaking off it's funny, oh well I guess throwing big cams at things to get high dyno numbers and sell things doesn't work either.

Bret

[wkmcd]

Yeah and you didn't even have all the timing in it due to me thinking we could run more compression. Oh well that's what I get for thinking. That cam is so far freaking off it's funny, oh well I guess throwing big cams at things to get high dyno numbers and sell things doesn't work either.

Bret

The car owner is not is not a bad guy. I've pm'd back and forth a few times. I couldn't help posting the question:

"Will Patrick G call this cam a "failed experiment""?

[Ed Curtis]

The car owner is not is not a bad guy. I've pm'd back and forth a few times. I couldn't help posting the question:

"Will Patrick G call this cam a "failed experiment""?
Thought that only happened in his car? http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/images/smilies/secret.gif

Just noticed... the "typical" Dyno Tricks being performed...

Figures....

"Come on Memphis!" Time to biotch slap the dyno queens!

[MUSTANGEATER]

"Come on Memphis!" Time to biotch slap the dyno queens!


:devil[3]:

For shits n grins I want to buy a Patrick G cam and put it in my motor and on the engine dyno vs BREX3.5²(42+9)=<Y Cam!, then run them down the track. Gawd the evil things I can do with money lol.

[wkmcd]

It's gotten some attention over there. :gloves:

1. It appears that he doesn't think Julio at Cartek can tune

2. 1 3/4 LT's until Chris posted that he made 497/481 with 1 3/4 LT's using a 231-235 LSK lobed cam.

3. "Only if your heads back up at .600" lift does it make sense to run an XE-R lobe on the intake." Funny, I run XE-R on both lobes and still managed 500+ with a 234-240 112 +0 cam.

Probably sun spots. :moon[1]:

[Ed Curtis]

So much misinformation, so little time....

One of my dealers in Georgia (not those idiots) just did up an L92/L76 top end with one of our little grinds. Not an LSK or an XER lobed camshaft either. (Yea Martha, there are other camshaft lobes) It rolled mid 480's in a low mileage 2006 GTO. Stock LS2 shortblock, headers and a great exhaust system. Oh, did I mention a "very knowledgeable" tuner.

Houston, "they" have a problem.... (We don't) :D

Ed

[SStrokerAce]

LOL HA HA HA HA HA

"he doesn't think Julio at Cartek can tune"

No JULIO CAN TUNE A CAR TO RUN IN REAL LIFE!, not just lean it out and make it put up high numbers on a dyno with a acceleration rate of a turtle.

What a ******* ******* that guy is. He really does just live in dreamland LS1techworld.

30-34° of ignition lead? Is he on ******* crack? Try like 28-29°

Not to mention he has real springs, not that Patriot ****.

Jesus, please keep this crap away from me I really don't want to KNOW how ignorant people are.

Bret

[02reaper]

Not to mention he has real springs, not that Patriot ****.
Bret

I've had the same patriot springs on two motors now, on two different FTI cams. probably got 30,000 miles on them now. No problems with them here.

[SStrokerAce]

Yeah I forgot I'm the only guy out there who is dumb enough to not think those Patriots are a top notch spring.

[wkmcd]

BTW: New lighter wheels on the car now.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g93/WKMCD/IMG_0537.jpg

[02reaper]

Yeah I forgot I'm the only guy out there who is dumb enough to not think those Patriots are a top notch spring.

Doesn't the company who makes the springs for patriot make them for most of the other "gold" spring sellers? Pioneer maybe? What springs do you prefer, and what are the pressures on the seat and open? Who makes the springs you prefer? I have heard you state that you do not like patriot springs before, but I still don't fully understand why they are not up to par for you?

[wkmcd]

LOL HA HA HA HA HA

"What a ******* ******* that guy is. He really does just live in dreamland LS1techworld.

30-34° of ignition lead? Is he on ******* crack? Try like 28-29°

Jesus, please keep this crap away from me I really don't want to KNOW how ignorant people are.

Bret

My car ran up to 30 degrees in tuning but didn't make any more HP than 29 so it came off the dyno 29.

[JZ'sTA]

Yeah I forgot I'm the only guy out there who is dumb enough to not think those Patriots are a top notch spring.

At least your smart enough to realize that. :devil[3]:

Just had to say it after the stupid spring thread in the other section.
:)

[Stang's Bane]

This guy is pulling Jelly beans cam out. Julio at Cartek speced one very similiar to what Kevin is running.

OMG Jelly Bean made a mistake, I can't believe it.

[Ed Curtis]

This guy is pulling Jelly beans cam out. Julio at Cartek speced one very similiar to what Kevin is running.

OMG Jelly Bean made a mistake, I can't believe it.

235/239 .597/.604.

What LSA and ICL????

Ed

[Stang's Bane]

Looks like Jelly Bean has his feelings hurt.

I predict that if you gain anything, it will be from additional tuning and not from better valve event. Too many people on this board and the Corvette Forum have made big power with cams in the range of your original cam. Most of them are also running 1 7/8" headers and 32-34 degrees of timing too. Are you?

[SStrokerAce]

Kieth, he actually does have a point in that..... reguardless of the cam you give someone they can easily **** up everything else and in the end the blame comes down to the cam.

Reguardless even if I could work miracles, I wouldn't take that guy on as a customer. Some people are just doomed to do things the wrong way, it's kinda like that Greg Fell moron. More money than brains.

As for Patrick G's thoughts..... he's right, it wouldn't be thru JUST A VALVE EVENT... it would be thru changing ALL of the valve events and making the springs and lobes work together.

Bret

[Ed Curtis]

I still find it hard to believe stock LS2 short blocks with the L92/L76 top end coupled with a mid range HR camshaft, can make 460-475 RWHP yet these "sponsor driven" 402 engines can't make the same 1.26-1.30 HP per cube....

At those numbers, these 402s should be over 500 RWHP easy...

Ed

[Stang's Bane]

Kieth, he actually does have a point in that..... reguardless of the cam you give someone they can easily **** up everything else and in the end the blame comes down to the cam.

Reguardless even if I could work miracles, I wouldn't take that guy on as a customer. Some people are just doomed to do things the wrong way, it's kinda like that Greg Fell moron. More money than brains.

As for Patrick G's thoughts..... he's right, it wouldn't be thru JUST A VALVE EVENT... it would be thru changing ALL of the valve events and making the springs and lobes work together.

Bret
Bret, believe me I agree with you, you and Ed have beat into our heads the importance of a combination, not just a cam.

My point was he refuses to believe anything he did can be wrong.

Also I don't think he has an original thought bouncing around in the jelly bean jar:)

[wkmcd]

Bret, believe me I agree with you, you and Ed have beat into our heads the importance of a combination, not just a cam.

My point was he refuses to believe anything he did can be wrong.

Also I don't think he has an original thought bouncing around in the jelly bean jar:)

When he says that people are running 34 degrees of timing on the L92 builds he's talking out his ass..I've talked to 5 or 6 people with these builds and they are all running around 30 - with success. With my first cam, Bret had the balls to stand up..PG is trying to piss on everyone's leg and convinced them that it's raining. We all took a lot of crap from PG over that...I gues there is such a thing as karma.

I could probably make more RWHP and RWT with another cam. But I could also just run down to Vengeance and put it on their dyno...:icon_roll

Besides, my car makes me happy just the way it is.

[wkmcd]

At those numbers, these 402s should be over 500 RWHP easy...

Ed

Mine is with a much smaller cam than the LG and some other cams being used. Just barely, but over 500 with 3.90's, cats, heavy wheels and all belts.

[Ed Curtis]

Mine is with a much smaller cam than the LG and some other cams being used. Just barely, but over 500 with 3.90's, cats, heavy wheels and all belts.

I rest my case... :cheers:

Cripe the cam I use with my L92 "shop packages" is quite small for a 6.0L engine, yet they all like the results...

Ed

[wkmcd]

235/239 .597/.604.

What LSA and ICL????

Ed

I believe it is a failry wide LSA - more than 114. Not sure about the ICL.

[Bob K]

Kieth, he actually does have a point in that..... reguardless of the cam you give someone they can easily **** up everything else and in the end the blame comes down to the cam.

Reguardless even if I could work miracles, I wouldn't take that guy on as a customer. Some people are just doomed to do things the wrong way, it's kinda like that Greg Fell moron. More money than brains.

As for Patrick G's thoughts..... he's right, it wouldn't be thru JUST A VALVE EVENT... it would be thru changing ALL of the valve events and making the springs and lobes work together.

Bret

Brett,

I'm that guy! Why wouldn't you want me for a customer? As far as more money than brains, this is not something I dove into without alot of conversions and watching. I answered every question that was asked of me when the cam was designed. I was specific that this was not a race car and I was interested in driveability.

After the 402/L76 combo was running I took a trip to Cartek (they were not impressed with the cam before the car hit the dyno) to get the car tuned. I talked to a guy at Comp Cams and he wasn't suprised at the results with the cam. Then I spoke with Cartek again and asked them to come up with something that would work. I told him what I wanted and left him pick something out.

Before Patrick G. speced out the cam, I gave him all the data he asked for. My combo is nothing wild. It's very similar to Kevins.

BTW, I never called Patrick's cam a failure, everyone else implied that. I called it an experiment.

Let's see what happens when the car get's dynoed. I picked up the cam yesterday and put it in today.

What more can I do? If I remember correctly, Kevins 1st cam didn't last too long either.
Bob K.

[Bob K]

I believe it is a failry wide LSA - more than 114. Not sure about the ICL.

The LSA is 116.

Bob K.

[Ed Curtis]

The LSA is 116.

Bob K.

Welcome Bob.... :cheers:

What was the ICL you guys are trying?

Ed

[wkmcd]

Welcome to the dark-side Bob..Or is this for people who have seen the light?

You won't find a lot of PG fans here. Too many smart people. :gloves:

[Ed Curtis]

You won't find a lot of PG fans here. Too many smart people. :gloves:

Hey... at least he knew where to steal his "Cam Form" from.. ;)

[Bob K]

Thanks for the warm welcome!

I'll try and behave, after all it seems I'm already tagged as a bad customer and I have more money than brains. :cheers:

At Cartek I didn't fill out a cam selection form. Maybe that's the problem. I don't think PG read what I sent him.

Ed,

I believe the ICL is 115.55 (actual).

Bob K.

[Ed Curtis]

Bob... if you behave... we'll tag you as a problem child and you'll have to listen to all the Bret "ranting" tapes we have on file. :D

Ed

[wkmcd]

Bob... if you behave... we'll tag you as a problem child and you'll have to listen to all the Bret "ranting" tapes we have on file. :D

Ed

OH NO!!!:eek:

[Stang's Bane]

Bob... if you behave... we'll tag you as a problem child and you'll have to listen to all the Bret "ranting" tapes we have on file. :D

Ed
You will see the light then, ....................or die trying:)

[SStrokerAce]

Brett,

I'm that guy! Why wouldn't you want me for a customer? As far as more money than brains, this is not something I dove into without alot of conversions and watching. I answered every question that was asked of me when the cam was designed. I was specific that this was not a race car and I was interested in driveability.

Before Patrick G. speced out the cam, I gave him all the data he asked for. My combo is nothing wild. It's very similar to Kevins.

BTW, I never called Patrick's cam a failure, everyone else implied that. I called it an experiment.

Let's see what happens when the car get's dynoed. I picked up the cam yesterday and put it in today.

What more can I do? If I remember correctly, Kevins 1st cam didn't last too long either.
Bob K.

Bob,

I'm going to be as nice as I can from my non PC ass...

First I did't call YOU "more money than brains"... that was Greg Fell. Jesus... I swear people read to much into something and get their panties in a bunch over a misinterpretation. So now I'm the bad guy because I'm calling you names? :icon_roll Then you come out trying to make a low blow about Kevin's cam, actually the low blow should have been about me thinking those heads can run some compression, that in the end was the downfall of that cam. WTF... that's where we actually learned something about those heads. The VE% of the motor is too good for running some magic DCR number that everyone shoots for. I've fully admitted that trying the high 11:1 range on those chambers with that early of a closing point is a bad idea and doesn't work. My fault.

When guys don't understand that being off 5° retarded from optimum timing on a setup is not off a good amount of power, I can tell they really don't spend a lot of time around a dyno. Kevin didn't want to spend $20 on a few gallons of 112 octane to prove the compression was the problem. Long story short, Kevin's whole deal left a potential customer (who owns a shop) with a bad taste in his mouth about me because he doesn't understand this basic fact of retarded timing and it's relationship to power output :icon_roll, so it doesn't make me wonder that the average Joe has no clue about this either. (not picking you out on this at all, just trying to derail the potential wedgie here)

As for my comments.... this isin't my first dog and pony show. I work with head porters and shops and see what customers can screw up day in and day out. (not saying YOU did or didn't, I don't know what all is wrong on your setup) My job is to work out something that should walk all over the standard setup, and in the right hands it always does. Low and behold there is always some guy who can screw up a well matched setup easily. Jesus I just had a guy say he picked up 4mph with a set of K800's and a Comp shelf cam over one of my setups that always does the exact opposite, it's always 4mph faster. This was with a billet core SBC cam with a 100g valve and beehives and he thinks that the beehives wiped the lobe out because they can't control a 100g valve only turning 6500rpm :icon_roll, PEOPLE CAN **** UP ANYTHING!!! Especially when I just gave that setup to a circle track guy last week with a heavier valve, more rocker arm ratio and he spun the thing higher than he has ever been able to.

Basically if someone has a setup that's not doing well, I can't from 3000miles away magically fix it with a camshaft. Because if they don't do all the details right that are not under my control, it's my cams fault and now I get the bad name. I've learned it's better to stay away from those customers than to worry about making a few bucks off of them. So sorry if your offended. Some people forget that the seller can refuse service to a customer and in the world of engines, the customer is rarely right. The can specifiy what they want, but NOT how to do it.

Your in capable hands with Cartek anyways, so I'm sure you will do much better in the end.

Honestly Patrick G didn't give you something that will work well anyways IMHO, so who knows what the problem is. I do agree with him that you don't put any less that 1 7/8th headers on a LS car ever, well unless it's a 5.0L.

Basically that 235/239 pile opens the exhaust valve to early, closes the intake way to late and basically tries to control the drivability by making that LSA wide as hell to not have overlap, for what you want to do. All things that don't make for a nice strong TQ curve where you actually drive the car, but work for going for a peak HP number. I've always found it's better to design the cam correctly for the RPM range the customer wants to run it in, rather than jack something up to get the overlap down so someone likes driving it.

Hope that last 30 mins of my life clairifies what I wrote earlier in 2 mins.

Bret

PS Ed, does that one go into my rant tape?

[Bob K]

Brett,

No problem. Sometimes I don't have any brains, and I never have any money (I'm married). You don't need to be PC. I'm a big boy. I do respect your knowledge when it comes to engines. :hail[1]: You probably have forgotten a hell of a lot more than I'll ever know.

And I didn't get my panties TOO bunched up.

As fas as my being an expert, I didn't even try. I paid some else his asking price who professed to be an expert. Out of the three other professional engine people who I've talked to they all share the same negative opinion about the cam.

You do have the right to refuse anyone's business. If you read my posts on the Corvette Forum and LS1Tech I was very clear in calling this cam an experiment. What could I have done to make this cam work. More tuning? I've got three other professional people telling me the cam is wrong.

You mentioned that you were interested in playing with a cam similar to mine? You welcome to borrow mine. I'm currently not using it.

Bob K.

[Ed Curtis]

As fas as my being an expert, I didn't even try. I paid some else his asking price who professed to be an expert. Out of the three other professional engine people who I've talked to they all share the same negative opinion about the cam.

Bob K.
Bob....

Not to open some wounds, but if others from the "other place" actually asked for the credentials of some of these internet experts, they'd have second thoughts about who they listen to, let alone spending their money with...

Maybe you should have seen this post. ;)

http://www.hardcorels1.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=685

At least you're now in good hands over at Julio's joint!

Ed

[Bob K]

No Sh*t, a car salesman. I should have known.

I'm scheduled for a tune on Thursday @ 2:30.

And yes, I think I'm in good hands. At least I didn't see any cars for sale when I've been there!

BTW, I was real happy with the ECS tune on my 346. THey did a very good job. See I can be a happy customer when I don't feel like I was hosed.

Bob K.

[wkmcd]

Bret, $20 for 112 octane wouldn't have bothered me at all. Unfortunately, I have to drive around on 93.

The deal I had with Richard at WCCH was that he would have input on the new cam to go with his heads for which we both benefited. That's how I ended up with the cam that's in there now.

I do think the main difference here is that you man'd up and PG is blaming everyone else involved.

I remain a supporter of your work.

At least Ed get's another one for the BB rant library.

[Bob K]

Bret, $20 for 112 octane wouldn't have bothered me at all. Unfortunately, I have to drive around on 93.

The deal I had with Richard at WCCH was that he would have input on the new cam to go with his heads for which we both benefited. That's how I ended up with the cam that's in there now.

I do think the main difference here is that you man'd up and PG is blaming everyone else involved.

I remain a supporter of your work.

At least Ed get's another one for the BB rant library.

And I spent $1000.00 between the tune and cam. No problem if it was my mistake, but I paid a "PRO" for design services.

Bob K

[Joe Mendelis]

As for my comments.... this isin't my first dog and pony show.



http://www.grand-am.com/News/Article.asp?ID=8835


I don't think they are running stuff from Patrick G

[MUSTANGEATER]

http://www.grand-am.com/News/Article.asp?ID=8835


I don't think they are running stuff from Patrick G


Patrick G > *

[OldSStroker]

http://www.grand-am.com/News/Article.asp?ID=8835


I don't think they are running stuff from Patrick G
:)

Maybe Gainsco found a few more ponies from somewhere else. They sure look good out there.

The in-car lap with Max A sounded nice...seemed to pull well right after a shift, and like it wanted to charge past the 7100 (?) max rpm.

[Joe Mendelis]

These cars have cams referred to as "B Spec" cams. Not "PG Spec". These cars would embarass most f body cars on a chassis dyno.

http://www.grand-am.com/Events/SessionResults.asp?SessionID=798

Rolex 24 At Daytona
Daytona Int'l Speedway
Daytona Beach, Florida
Rolex Series
Qualifying 1: January 25, 2007 3:45 PM

Pos No. Class Class Pos. Driver Team Time Speed Sponsors
1 99 DP 1 Alex Gurney Gainsco/ Bob Stallings Racing / Pontiac Riley 1:43.475 123.856 Gainsco Auto Insurance

2 10 DP 2 Max Angelelli SunTrust Racing / Pontiac Riley 1:43.480 123.850 SunTrust

3 91 DP 3 Marc Goossens Lowe's Riley-Matthews Motorsports / Pontiac Riley

[Joe Mendelis]

:)

Maybe Gainsco found a few more ponies from somewhere else. They sure look good out there.

The in-car lap with Max A sounded nice...seemed to pull well right after a shift, and like it wanted to charge past the 7100 (?) max rpm.


Kyle, the chassis engineer, is very sharp.
I know where Bob S. is Not getting extra power from. I'm sure it sounds like they want to pull past 7,100 because they do want to:) . Just like my Honda.

The in car with Max was cool. I watched it this evening on Speed.

[SStrokerAce]

Joe.... remember we are just dumb rednecks from new york who don't know anything... well other than picking up about 50hp in a year for those cars.

Bob k, no problem on all of this you seem like a ok guy by me. Let us know how that setup works out.

Bret

[Bob K]

Brett,

Thanks!

And I really did enjoy your postings on that other forum!

I have an appointment on Thursday to get the car tuned for the new cam.

We had a Corvettes For A Cure show yesterday (I help out, no one wants to look at my old C5) and the car was a joy to drive up and back.

Bob K.

[wkmcd]

Brett,

Thanks!

And I really did enjoy your postings on that other forum!

I have an appointment on Thursday to get the car tuned for the new cam.

We had a Corvettes For A Cure show yesterday (I help out, no one wants to look at my old C5) and the car was a joy to drive up and back.

Bob K.

So, you're saying even before a tune it feels a lot better than the PG cam? :gloves: :moon[1]:

[SStrokerAce]

The deal I had with Richard at WCCH was that he would have input on the new cam to go with his heads for which we both benefited. That's how I ended up with the cam that's in there now.


Yeah and I got bent over and had no chance to put a better cam in there for free? In my point of view that's VERY FRUSTRATING.... from what I said before. The average Joe doesn't understand that situation, so it's just some very bad press for me, which is a situation that's not worth the profit you make on the cam.

Either way it's all done with at this point, and your setup works well. I still don't like building cams that are just peak number cams and I really don't think any street car with a L92 will ever run well with a cam that does that, Bob's setup is evidence of that and it didn't even make a good peak number.

Bret

[wkmcd]

Yeah and I got bent over and had no chance to put a better cam in there for free? In my point of view that's VERY FRUSTRATING.... from what I said before. The average Joe doesn't understand that situation, so it's just some very bad press for me, which is a situation that's not worth the profit you make on the cam.

Either way it's all done with at this point, and your setup works well. I still don't like building cams that are just peak number cams and I really don't think any street car with a L92 will ever run well with a cam that does that, Bob's setup is evidence of that and it didn't even make a good peak number.

Bret

Bret,

I had to pay labor twice. I'm not doing this myself. I understand your frustration but since I was happy with the car I couldn't justify paying for labor a third time. BTW: I've never said a negative word to anyone about you or the first cam in the car. F, I fell on my own sword rather than say anything about you. I've built enough world class motorcylce engines that I could have laid down on the tracks if I didn't think it was going to work. I chalked it up to experience with new setup.

I also agree that the BIG cams these knuckleheads are putting in not working off "chosen" dyno's. There are a few around 500RWHP with small - for 402's - cams that are incredible drivers. Maybe this winter we'll revisit the cam. Right now, I make enough power to doink the torque tube. New bushings in that this weekend.

[Bob K]

Brett,

I guess that's why they call working on new things "the bleeding edge". I wonder what would happen without people like you taking things forward?

WTF, no one ever offered me a free cam. :icon_roll

BTW, I added a QTP 2pc timing cover to make any future cam changes easier.:)

Kevin,

I don't care about peak horsepower. I'm an under the curve kinda of guy.

I thought the car drove better. I know the wife was happier. Or maybe she was too tired to care, she spent the entire day working with me at the car show. The fun part of the show was that we got to spend the day with Lance Miller (Corvettes at Carisle) and his wife and alot of other very generous people.

Bob K.

[racer7088]

Hahahahah! Just read all this crap and I know most involved and I can't believe how much crap people are giving Patrick!

I have my disagreements with ALL cam guys but I haven't seen that Patrick is crazy or arbitrary at all in his selection of cams whatsoever.

He was testing cams and converters and everything else there was in the LS1 market before I even heard of any of you other guys. He was swapping cams out at SAM with us like almost ten years ago! We didn't even have our own timing chains back then.

Also he is not a used car dealer but owns his own ad agency and does radio and TV spots as well as printed stuff.

I can also say that he has been totally professional and hardly ever bashes anyone else even when they bad mouth him.

I just freshened an older TR engine for him and it was a 347 with his own setup and it made over 500 RWHP and pulls to the mid 7000 range with no problems.

ANYONE can one up the last cam guy if he sees the results usually and sees the previous cam and knows where the customer wants to go from there. It's the first guy that usually looks bad although Patricks cam I guess still stayed on top in that particular thread as far as TQ and Power anyway.

Then as Patrick Guerra AND Bret said you have to make sure the peripherals or tuning aren't holding you back. A certain LS1 engine me and a good head porter did down here picked up over a 100 RWHP just from Kooks 1 7/8 and some valvetrain adjustments!

I've used Patriot gold springs on three of the fastest NA hydraulic roller cars on LS1Tech (all in the nines at normal weights). I have had no issues and yet I've seen people trash expensive comp 921s and PSI and other great springs and float the hell out of valves due to incorrect setups and lobes.

Even just sending a cam to some guy with the right springs means nothing if they are ignorant or incompetent at setting it all up. I routinely see cams in way retarded or with springs way off .150+ from bind with 100 psi on the seat or the other way around.

It's not the cam or engine guys fault that they did this all on their own without even an installed height mic. I have not seen a whole hell of a lot better from the shops installing and tuning this crap either so if you find a good shop definitely stay with them!

[racer7088]

Bob K.

Good luck though with your L92 quest as those are somewhat different heads and after time people will arrive at a better overal baseline cam duration architecture for those heads. I still think wider with more split and a lil less intake duration but I have not seen as many L92s as I would like.

You'll have good service from any of these guys but I think you would from PG as well and you will pick up more than you'd think from those headers.

I have only seen about 300 LS1 dynoed that picked up good power with the Kooks over the other brands myself. I don't even profess to know why but the 1 7/8 usually even pick up the 347s!

[Ed Curtis]

Erik,

Couldn't have cared less about PG and his antics on the other site until a customer showed me where he plagiarized my original online "Cam Form" for his own use. Right down to the fonts and layout. Sorry, but just as Texas Speed copied one of my grinds and called it their new MS4, I have no respect for those who steal...

Ed

[racer7088]

Hopefully he didn't do that but many people wouldn't think of the form itself as that important although if I did it myself I would also be pissed if someone else was using the same one I made as well. I would email him about it if you don't want him to use it and it's yours. I see most of the cam info sheets look the same but exactly the same is definitely wrong if it's your original sheet Ed.


Erik,

Couldn't have cared less about PG and his antics on the other site until a customer showed me where he plagiarized my original online "Cam Form" for his own use. Right down to the fonts and layout. Sorry, but just as Texas Speed copied one of my grinds and called it their new MS4, I have no respect for those who steal...

Ed

[Ed Curtis]

Hopefully he didn't do that but many people wouldn't think of the form itself as that important although if I did it myself I would also be pissed if someone else was using the same one I made as well. I would email him about it if you don't want him to use it and it's yours. I see most of the cam info sheets look the same but exactly the same is definitely wrong if it's your original sheet Ed.
I can Email you both forms for proof. After all, it's not a hard thing to see. Here's just the title block for reference...

Flowtech Induction Custom Camshaft Worksheet

Complete this worksheet as accurately as possible and e-mail it as an attachment to edcurtisFTI@cox.net


Guerra Motorsports Custom Camshaft Build Sheet

Complete this worksheet as accurately as possible and e-mail it as an attachment to camhelp@guerragroup.com




Since you're pretty tight with him, why not you ask him? I have changed my online form but you do get the gist of my opinion.

Ed

[racer7088]

Actually I am "tighter" with you Ed even if that does sound kind of weird but I will ask him. I've just never had any problems with him really. I am not saying you are wrong either that he copied your form possibly. I know that I've seen a lot of that on the net.

I can Email you both forms for proof. After all, it's not a hard thing to see. Here's just the title block for reference...

Flowtech Induction Custom Camshaft Worksheet
Complete this worksheet as accurately as possible and e-mail it as an attachment to edcurtisFTI@cox.net



Guerra Motorsports Custom Camshaft Build Sheet
Complete this worksheet as accurately as possible and e-mail it as an attachment to camhelp@guerragroup.com


Since you're pretty tight with him, why not you ask him? I have changed my online form but you do get the gist of my opinion.

Ed

[wkmcd]

Erik,

I don't know Patrick from Santa Claus except from his posts. This post was in response to my engine build that everyone on LSrech was following closely being the first one talked about. He called it a "failed experiment" and drew first blood. That's all.

[racer7088]

Well experiments are either a success or failure or maybe inconclusive but I don't know anything else about it.

I do know that the second cam guy always has a better chance after the first guy though.

[SStrokerAce]

Then as Patrick Guerra AND Bret said you have to make sure the peripherals or tuning aren't holding you back. A certain LS1 engine me and a good head porter did down here picked up over a 100 RWHP just from Kooks 1 7/8 and some valvetrain adjustments!

Even just sending a cam to some guy with the right springs means nothing if they are ignorant or incompetent at setting it all up. I routinely see cams in way retarded or with springs way off .150+ from bind with 100 psi on the seat or the other way around.

It's not the cam or engine guys fault that they did this all on their own without even an installed height mic. I have not seen a whole hell of a lot better from the shops installing and tuning this crap either so if you find a good shop definitely stay with them!

Amen to that! You can tell someone what to do and give them the right parts but if they can't follow what you say and put the package together then you get junk results.

Bret

[Black_Knight]

Well experiments are either a success or failure or maybe inconclusive but I don't know anything else about it.

I do know that the second cam guy always has a better chance after the first guy though.
PG called his cam a "failed experiment" then PG turns around and does much worse with his. What was that about the second guy having a better chance than the first?

[racer7088]

No one understands it. Not even the scientists!!!

[Bob K]

I don't think PG had any knowledge of the 1st (Kevins) cam design.

BTW, I spoke with Ed yesterday and we came up with a plan of attack.

Thank you Ed.

Bob K.

[SStrokerAce]

Bob, good to hear that you are being taken care of. Any results from Cartek yet?

Bret

[Bob K]

Brett,

The new cam did not make more power, but the driveability has been improved.:burnout[1

I made 451 (old= 460) and 414 (old = 421) at the wheels.

Bob K.

[SStrokerAce]

Interesting... did the TQ curve improve at all anywhere? I don't really want to know the specs because I know how that is but it would be interesting to see what they were.

I'm guessing Ed is going to give it a shot now.

Bret

[Bob K]

Brett,

Here are the cam specs (Cam Doctor results).

0.006 0.050 0.200
Intake Duration - ID 286.07 234.74 160 3727R lobe
Exhaust Duration - ED 290.12 239.23 168 3729R lobe
Lobe Center Angle - LCA 115.5
Intake Centerline - ICL 115.5

Lift Int. .598 Exh .605

The torque curve looked to improved a little bit. I'll try to post the dyno graphs later.

Bob K.

[SStrokerAce]

That's from the PG cam right?

[Stang's Bane]

No, that is the Cartek cam.

the pg was a 235/248 or something like that..

[SStrokerAce]

Ok so it went from a

235/248 LSK/XE-R 114LSA +2

to a

234/238 XE-R/XE-R 115

Doesn't surprise me that the lower exhaust duration lost power.

Bret

[Stang's Bane]

114 lsa 2 deg adv.

[SStrokerAce]

VE.... PG... Cartek

IVO... 5.5... 2
IVC... 49.5. 52
EVO... 60... 54
EVC.... 8..... 4

Obviously a lot less overlap, hence the better drivability going from 13.5° to 6° @ .050", but the loss of TQ is going to lose you something as well, you can handle more overlap with more low end TQ.

All the DCR freaks will claim that the IVC is too late but that's not all of the story in reality, but it IS some of it. I have to say I think Cartek is getting close (centerline is off) on the exhaust valve events but they just teamed it up with too much intake lobe. I'd rather run less intake duration, but they would have found more power with that intake lobe with more exhaust duration, if you let it in, you have to get it out!

That's just what I would do, but I don't know squat and obviously compression plays into this as I've played that game before on these heads.

Bret

[Ed Curtis]

I don't want to sound rude .... The Cartek grind bugs me...

This "is" a 400+ incher right????

Why short-change the cam profile, especially the exhaust duration?

Ed

[Bob K]

Ed,

Yep, it's a 402. I guess that's why I put a QTP 2 Pc Timing cover on.

I'm going to pull the heads next week.

Bob K.

[wkmcd]

Ed,

Yep, it's a 402. I guess that's why I put a QTP 2 Pc Timing cover on.

I'm going to pull the heads next week.

Bob K.

That didn't take long. LOL

[Bob K]

I got a call from the machine shop and the heads were at 65cc's already. This was a suprise because I was told that they were milled .020.

I'm putting it back together with .041 gaskets instead of .053's.

Bob K.

[wkmcd]

I got a call from the machine shop and the heads were at 65cc's already. This was a suprise because I was told that they were milled .020.

I'm putting it back together with .041 gaskets instead of .053's.

Bob K.

Bob,

What pistons are you running? How much out of the hole?

[Bob K]

The pistons are Manley's w/ 6cc valve reliefs and the pistons are level with the deck.

With the new head gaskets that puts the motor at 11.37 SCR.

BTW, you going to Carsile? I'm going on Friday with a buddy. He got a '07 vert and wants to get Corsa to put a catback on.

Bob K.

[wkmcd]

The pistons are Manley's w/ 6cc valve reliefs and the pistons are level with the deck.

With the new head gaskets that puts the motor at 11.37 SCR.

BTW, you going to Carsile? I'm going on Friday with a buddy. He got a '07 vert and wants to get Corsa to put a catback on.

Bob K.

Curious until I remembered that my chambers were opened up some by Richard during the CNC process. I run 2cc pistons and .040 gaskets and net 11.3:1.

The crew will be cruising up to Carlisle on Saturday.

[CollinsAuto]

To much compression on that chamber with to short of a rod.




The pistons are Manley's w/ 6cc valve reliefs and the pistons are level with the deck.

With the new head gaskets that puts the motor at 11.37 SCR.

BTW, you going to Carsile? I'm going on Friday with a buddy. He got a '07 vert and wants to get Corsa to put a catback on.

Bob K.

[wkmcd]

To much compression on that chamber with to short of a rod.

Sean, why do you say that? I'm running 11.3:1 with some success.

[Bob K]

To much compression on that chamber with to short of a rod.

Please leave my short rod out of this! :icon_roll

On a serious note when I spoke with Ed the plan was to mill the heads to 64cc's and install a .041 head gasket. That would have given me 11.5 scr. When I pulled the heads I went back to the local shop and they cc'ed them. They came out to 65 cc's so I decided to leave it at that.

Thank you everyone for the comments (really)!!

Bob K.

BTW, I'll be at Carlsile on Friday.

[wkmcd]

Please leave my short rod out of this! :icon_roll

On a serious note when I spoke with Ed the plan was to mill the heads to 64cc's and install a .041 head gasket. That would have given me 11.5 scr. When I pulled the heads I went back to the local shop and they cc'ed them. They came out to 65 cc's so I decided to leave it at that.

Thank you everyone for the comments (really)!!

Bob K.

BTW, I'll be at Carlsile on Friday.

Bob,

I'd give up a little compression for a little more timing on these heads in a heart beat.

My $.02

[CollinsAuto]

I geuss there are a few ways you could look at it. The chamber from what I have seen ,the l92 chamber specifically really likes about 29/31 total timming. You can adjust this by adding rod ratio for piston dwell run less timming and get net similar power at a given compression ratio by changing up the rod ratio.

Or you can build a lower compression engine with a shorter rod faster piston speeds and less piston dwell and run more timming. I really don't recomend over 10.5:1 with these heads on regular pump fuel. Now if we throw some 105 or higher octane fuels in the mix runs upto 13:1 if you want with pretty much any rod ratio but expect to still see the engine favor more timming.

the rod to stroke ratio is key here and with a 4inch arm and a 6.125 rod your already into an engine with an oil ring support rial. So a longer rod is off the table unless you can find some deck height.

The l92 chamber was designed to have a somewhat lower burn speed to keep down the Peak combustion tempature to avoid NOX2 emmission and keep EGR valves off the engine. Read it requires more initial spark lead then a comparable ls1 chambered head . I have yet to see the ls3 head chamber it may very well be a bit different.


Sean



Sean, why do you say that? I'm running 11.3:1 with some success.

[JZ'sTA]

To much compression on that chamber with to short of a rod.

I must disagree. I have now been part of 2 different L92 setup's.
The first made 550+ with 12:1CR and the other made 535 with just a hair over 12:1. The biggest difference was in cam. I speced the cam in the first motor and Comp speced the cam in the 2nd. 15HP is a difference but in all reality a small difference because it was only around 5500-6200 where the power was more then 5HP different. Comp suggested a 111LSA which I didn't like at all but thats what the customer wanted and thats what I ordered him.
Anyways timing is very key in making power but so is Compression.

[Ed Curtis]

How about more info on those two projects?

Maybe even a dyno curve?

Ed

[CollinsAuto]

What piston were you running and how big are these camshafts ?



I must disagree. I have now been part of 2 different L92 setup's.
The first made 550+ with 12:1CR and the other made 535 with just a hair over 12:1. The biggest difference was in cam. I speced the cam in the first motor and Comp speced the cam in the 2nd. 15HP is a difference but in all reality a small difference because it was only around 5500-6200 where the power was more then 5HP different. Comp suggested a 111LSA which I didn't like at all but thats what the customer wanted and thats what I ordered him.
Anyways timing is very key in making power but so is Compression.

[JZ'sTA]

What piston were you running and how big are these camshafts ?
Flat top with 2cc reliefs. Weisco's in one, and I cant remember the other.
Motor "A" was a 416 L92 block, motor "B" was a 414 Iron bored 60 thous.
Motor "A" had a 250/255 if I remember correctly around 620 lift and a 114+1LSA cam I believe.
Motor "B" had a 252/260 similar lift and a 111LSA if I remember correctly.
These might not be exact but are in a very close ballpark range, I can get the customers info at the shop monday and get the exact numbers.
Both combos had TEA ported L92 heads, and a L76 manifold. Also 2 different dynos were used but the same tuner. Motor "A" had LG's and corsa, with a EWP, motor "B" had brethless headers stepped I believe, with stock water Pump. Both Z06 cars.
Anyways, that is a quick and sloppy break down, sorry only have a few minutes to type.
I posted a graph here before of the motor "A" as thats the one I did at the shop. Motor B I just ordered the heads, cam, intake for the car. And he picked the cam like I said, using someone at comp for the grind.
Let me see if I can find the graph real quick.

[JZ'sTA]

Here we go.
http://www.hardcorels1.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=39&d=1183504686

[JZ'sTA]

Also I can tell you 100% the cam in motor "A" is aggressive and you know its got a cam in it but not 1 complaint from the owner on driveability. Drives really well. He had a 346 with a 234/238 595/600 112+2 cam and 11.5:1 C/R and says this cam idles and drives better then that one. He did loose a little MPG on teh highway over the 346 combo but still avarages over 23MPG at 80MPH.
Not that you guys care to much about that but he did.

[CollinsAuto]

a 114 with a 250 lobe = **** tons of overlap. Hence your high compression timing deal. Had you not bled so much cylinder pressure off it would not have been doable. that 111 liked even more timing i would bet.



Flat top with 2cc reliefs. Weisco's in one, and I cant remember the other.
Motor "A" was a 416 L92 block, motor "B" was a 414 Iron bored 60 thous.
Motor "A" had a 250/255 if I remember correctly around 620 lift and a 114+1LSA cam I believe.
Motor "B" had a 252/260 similar lift and a 111LSA if I remember correctly.
These might not be exact but are in a very close ballpark range, I can get the customers info at the shop monday and get the exact numbers.
Both combos had TEA ported L92 heads, and a L76 manifold. Also 2 different dynos were used but the same tuner. Motor "A" had LG's and corsa, with a EWP, motor "B" had brethless headers stepped I believe, with stock water Pump. Both Z06 cars.
Anyways, that is a quick and sloppy break down, sorry only have a few minutes to type.
I posted a greph here before of the motor "A" as thats the one I did at the shop. Motor B I just ordered the heads, cam, intake for the car. And he picked the cam like I said, using someone at comp for the grind.
Let me see if I can find the graph real quick.

[Bob K]

I broke down and purchased a set of 1 7/8 ARHeaders at Carlsile yesterday.

I had it dynoed there yesterday just to see what it did. I got 438/397. It was very hot and very humid.

Bob K.